Jordan Ranson of Manaaki Media talks to Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche _13 November 2023. Wānaka

Jordan Ranson (J R): The first question I’d love to ask you is would you be able to introduce yourself and what you would consider your Dharma in this life?

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche (K N): So, my name is Khyentse Norbu, but people use my title. It’s just culturally, that’s what they use the most. So now people call me Rinpoche. I was trained in a philosophy school. And then, of course, my tribe, so to speak, expects me to look after the lineage, the teaching and culture, if you like. So that’s sort of my task. And that’s what I’ve been doing. But because the philosophy that I practice, practice and study is becoming kind of a… I don’t know the word “popular” I should use. It’s being sought out by non-Himalayans, non-traditionally Buddhist countries. So I now go around, teach this a little bit.

Now, for me, as brought up as a Buddhist, I wanted, you know, the true Dharma for me is to really live with the truth, not to be going away from the truth. And when I say “truth”, I’m not even talking about anything magical or mythical or something like I don’t know, beyond the mundane. You know, the truth is very much embedded, or embedded is maybe not the right word. You know, there’s the truth that everything changes all the time. It’s very easy to say it like this, but really difficult to accept, especially when some of the changes are something that you don’t want to change. And sometimes some of the changes, you really want them to change, but then they don’t, they seemingly don’t change. So it’s difficult to always live with the truth.

And then also, as a Buddhist, we are told that nothing will satisfy you a hundred percent. But then we also forget that. We kind of fall into this trap that this is going to give me a whole answer. Then the third thing is that in Buddhism we talk about how things appear and how things really are, are two different things. But we forget that again. We always end up thinking how things appear is how things are. So we become very proud and we become very prejudiced. So my Dharma is aspiration to live with the truth as much as possible.

J R: Thank you. I really wanted to ask you because I’ve been noticing. I’ve been to a few of the different monasteries around Aotearoa/New Zealand and there are quite a few Tibetan monks actually that have chosen or have been welcomed to Aotearoa and I wanted to know, what was it that made you choose Wanaka to do this event?

K N: Several reasons. Generally, I personally wanted… when I was asked to do this, I wanted somewhere very beautiful, uncorrupted by lots, well, which is very difficult to find now, but still, I’m not talking only about sort of outer pollution, I’m talking about all kinds of pollution. So, somewhere where, some of the last remaining place on earth that is beautiful, clean, and very much down to earth, sky, I don’t know, name it, lake.

But also, I wanted others to put some effort. I think it’s, you know, when you sacrifice a bit of your time and energy in search for the truth, to celebrate the wisdom, then I think that becomes very meaningful. Otherwise, every information we get, we teach, you can basically go to a book shop or you watch it on YouTube or even experience in the city, which is fine. But from time to time, I think it’s good to go somewhere. So, I wanted people to, actually treat this as a pilgrim, you know, pilgrimage. And I think people really felt that way, so which is good.

J R: Thank you. I think you chose well. I share all of those things about this wonderful land. I love it. I love it like it’s a brother and a sister. So you mentioned wisdom; I really wanted to ask you because one of the things that we’re doing in Manaaki is to be a modern voice for ancient wisdom. And I wanted to know what you felt the importance of ancient wisdom is today.

K N: I think, not just, you know, I’m trained with the ancient Buddhist wisdom, but I have encountered also other traditions, like Mayans, you know, natives in Canada, and then India, China. I think what the ancient people had was they were very much on earth. They were really immersed with the elements. And they were with people even, not just… I know we have social media, and supposedly that’s where everybody socializes, but it’s not really socializing. Nobody’s hugging each other, nobody’s touching, nobody’s really actually talking like this. And that’s happening on every level. Earth, water, tree.

So more and more, if we as a human being need to stay on this earth, we need to really, you know, not isolate from the earth, from the environment, and from each other also. Because I think, this is what Buddha’s main message, one of the main message or a teaching: empathy. Otherwise, this materialistic modernity is really almost the opposite, complete opposite of empathy. So nobody really is managing to put their feet on others’ shoes and see things from their point of view. So I think ancient wisdom has to be invoked again.

J R: So another question leading off that because I know that you have made some films and you’re a storyteller yourself and we really see the potency of story in helping to share that ancient wisdom.

K N: Very much. Story is all there is, actually. I know, you know, this is what the Buddha said.

The truth is the most important, but to tell the truth you need a story that is somehow not truth, right? It’s a story, but the story is the only means. Some stories can be very short, some can be very abstract, others can be very, you know, um, everywhere, not cohesive probably for the modern mind, but without the story, I mean, every propaganda, every news media actually is a story, isn’t it?

So right now there’s just so many stories that are being told by people who have a certain limited, vested interest that are always related to something very materialistic. So if we need to sort of counter them or if we need to at least stand on our own feet, we need to preserve these stories. Of course, we can tell in a modern way. We can tell, because stories also need to be told according to the listener’s capacity.

J R: Yeah, we always ask ourselves, what is the moral of the story? And we look at the stories of the world and ask, what is the moral? It’s not really a moral then, you know, so. That’s the next question is, what’s your you know, your humble opinion of the way that spirituality is in the world at the moment?

K N: Sometimes I feel very, you know, like discouraged how the world, people in the world are really becoming alienated from the spiritual world. But on the other hand, ironically, all the access to the information, the speed of our whatever… technology, people are also bumping into, stumbling into meaningful, spiritual world. I think we just need to learn how to do it according to the time and according to the tools that are available.

J R: I’ve got a question about reincarnation: Do you feel that it’s an important element for people on their spiritual journeys to understand reincarnation? And for those of us or those people that perhaps aren’t aware of it, how much do you reckon it changes your spiritual perspective of your life?

K N: Ok, this is a very important and difficult question. The difficulty because of the word. See, each language has a different definition, even though they sort of overlap or they have a similar meaning. But I think the word, English word “reincarnation”, when we use that word, I have a feeling that for a lot of people there is an assumption, especially, yeah, there is an assumption that there is some sort of a soul that travels into a different body, you understand?

Now, that is not really the case, especially if you are talking about reincarnation from the Buddhist point of view. The word, the Tibetan word for so-called reincarnation is “yangsi”, which means actually “continuous existence”. So, reincarnation is actually a study of time. Between yesterday and today, are we the same or are we totally different? Well, the Buddhists would say they are neither the same nor different. But there is a continuation, right?

We have to function like that. Otherwise, you would do something criminal yesterday and then you can claim that today’s “you” is separate. So, you are innocent. You can’t really do that. You know, there is this notion of a continuous being. So, something like that. That for, especially Eastern traditions, like Buddhism, Hinduism, is very important because if you don’t believe in this kind of relative time, then there is no ground for ethics, morality, values and stuff like that.

J R: Yeah, that’s it, isn’t it? It’s that understanding of cause and effect that changes the way that you act in the world. Okay, a few more questions and then I’ll let you, let you be.

Thank you. So we’ve gone into reincarnation. Fluidity. I wanted to talk to you about fluidity because you’re obviously from a long lineage of great masters that goes very far back in time. Can you talk about fluidity with this wisdom, the wisdom of these teachings, and now you’re embodying them? How do you move through this world fluidly with that wisdom?

K N: Now, this is where, I think, some of this Eastern philosophy is, I would say, is quite good. See, something like Buddhism. The core sort of principle, foundation of Buddhism is something to do with the truth that I was talking about earlier. You know, like everything is impermanent. Nothing will give you 100% satisfaction. How it appears is not how it is.

Now, this is never constricted by gender, culture, race and time. From the time of the Buddha, everything is impermanent. Still impermanent. You understand? So that, that truth is, as long as we don’t lose that, then the method, how you deal with this, how you relate with it, how you teach, that has to be changed. But we can’t lose this one.

J R: So always anchored in that truth.

K N: Yes.

J R: My final question, what is your message for the world?

K N: Oh, well, that’s a big one.

Well, as I said earlier, I think… it’s not really my message. It’s something that I learned from Buddhadharma. Empathy is so important, I think.

Children, I mean, parents should have empathy with the children. You know, put your feet in their shoes. I don’t know, Joe Biden should have empathy with Putin. You know? I don’t know, Republicans should have empathy with the Democrats. I don’t know, just all this polarization, all this different… “My way is the only way.”

“My system is the only way it will work for the whole world.” That’s not empathy. Things don’t work… what works for New Zealand doesn’t really work in places like, I don’t know, Papua New Guinea, right? You have to really have empathy.

Just between a mountain dweller and a plain dweller, the lifestyle, the way you think, the way we think is different. So I think, I would say empathy needs to be encouraged, empathy needs to be talked about. I think in that lies everything, so-called human rights, this, that, liberal values, everything is in that.